[CHANGE] New Kraken Changes

[Brassx]

(12-22-2018, 07:41 AM)Nivendo Wrote:  Quite honestly, the best solution is probably to just change the guaranteed eye to be a decent chance at getting the eye for dealing most damage, and make it tradeable again. With how many eyes will exist over time, there's no need for Kraken to drop an eye every time. Not only that, but if the guaranteed eye is ambiguous and instead spread more evenly among the top ~8, there's no feedback or any way to identify who got an eye for what, and people will probably be content just trying their best to deal damage the best they can. While I'm a strict capitalist dog, it really do be like that sometimes. This way, people don't feel the need to grief over the top spot, because the top ~8 will have a good shot at an eye, and people don't have to jump in front of Ace, Ban or I with negative sag while we're trying to shoot because it hurts their odds at getting an eye that they might *actually* be able to drop instead of trying to help someone else that they know to get that single slot.

TL;DR/Main Points:
-Change "top eye damage eye" to "top eye damage chance", maybe give additional unique drop chance similar to fishing up Kraken, but not a guaranteed eye.
-Take that guaranteed eye and distribute the "1 in 1" through the top ~8 top **dps** players, not top eye dps. Essentially up the odds for the top ~8 so that ~1 eye drops between them, guaranteed.
-Revoke untradeable status, no real need to make many, if any, untradeable items in a player economy imo.
-Revoke down-phase water damage, maybe? I'm not too sure. It makes the fight really depend on accuracy-based weapons like augs, which feels restricting.

Basically, change it so that the goal isn't to kill eyes. It's to kill the Kraken.

EDIT: It's not really possible to make the fight fair when it comes to eye damage. Someone will always have the best weapon for the fight, and if they don't fuck up, they'll get the guaranteed eye. When two people have the same weapon, it'll just be a competition between the two of them. The cycle will continue unless it's distributed among a larger pool more fairly, which is pretty much what I want to stress. The guaranteed eye probably doesn't have a spot in a system where damage is almost entirely dependent on how absurd the gun you're using is.

I don't think it's bad at all to have at least one thing that physically awards you for having a better weapon than someone else, we do not have many things that do so in the first place.

The thing with making the guaranteed eye untradeable, it makes the people who get it HAVE to use it, which then increases the chances that the eye will actually just be consumed/failed, rather than cheese trade it to someone who is good at it almost guaranteeing it succeeds, just like Djinn's all over again. The outcome will be tradeable, just the eye itself wont be (unless you get it via RNG).

There's plenty of other ways to gain an eye right now, and the downside of going for the guaranteed one is the fact you have to use it yourself. Which I think is perfectly fair, as I never wanted people to 'trade them to people who can do them and trade the reward back', because that's just a loophole to get around the 'skill' barrier.

Quote:I think that stormforged/hydra should be BIS for kraken specifically and I'm glad that's becoming more the case. I dislike that azuredge is still so good it'll cheese your way to eye no problem.

The thing is, more than Excel have the Azuredge, yet he usually still gets the eye with these changes? If it could cheese your way to it no problem, why do the other users not get any eyes?  

Quote:My main problem with with kraken is probably how for a world boss it's more of a singleplayer experience that requires you avoid everyone at all costs.

If that were the case, the Kraken would never get killed. Remember how long it took for people to actually kill it? A decent chunk of people have to focus the same tentacles, otherwise you simply won't kill it. That's a bout as complex as a 30 player boss fight should get, because managing that many people into doing a more complex boss fight would be extremely difficult and frustrating.

I do sort of like the idea of changing the guaranteed to top 8 or something, but I wouldn't make it tradeable still. A guaranteed one should have the downside of needing to be used by the person who obtained it, I stand by that firmly.

[Nyte]

(12-22-2018, 01:41 PM)Brassx Wrote:  

(12-22-2018, 07:41 AM)Nivendo Wrote:  Quite honestly, the best solution is probably to just change the guaranteed eye to be a decent chance at getting the eye for dealing most damage, and make it tradeable again. With how many eyes will exist over time, there's no need for Kraken to drop an eye every time. Not only that, but if the guaranteed eye is ambiguous and instead spread more evenly among the top ~8, there's no feedback or any way to identify who got an eye for what, and people will probably be content just trying their best to deal damage the best they can. While I'm a strict capitalist dog, it really do be like that sometimes. This way, people don't feel the need to grief over the top spot, because the top ~8 will have a good shot at an eye, and people don't have to jump in front of Ace, Ban or I with negative sag while we're trying to shoot because it hurts their odds at getting an eye that they might *actually* be able to drop instead of trying to help someone else that they know to get that single slot.

TL;DR/Main Points:
-Change "top eye damage eye" to "top eye damage chance", maybe give additional unique drop chance similar to fishing up Kraken, but not a guaranteed eye.
-Take that guaranteed eye and distribute the "1 in 1" through the top ~8 top **dps** players, not top eye dps. Essentially up the odds for the top ~8 so that ~1 eye drops between them, guaranteed.
-Revoke untradeable status, no real need to make many, if any, untradeable items in a player economy imo.
-Revoke down-phase water damage, maybe? I'm not too sure. It makes the fight really depend on accuracy-based weapons like augs, which feels restricting.

Basically, change it so that the goal isn't to kill eyes. It's to kill the Kraken.

EDIT: It's not really possible to make the fight fair when it comes to eye damage. Someone will always have the best weapon for the fight, and if they don't fuck up, they'll get the guaranteed eye. When two people have the same weapon, it'll just be a competition between the two of them. The cycle will continue unless it's distributed among a larger pool more fairly, which is pretty much what I want to stress. The guaranteed eye probably doesn't have a spot in a system where damage is almost entirely dependent on how absurd the gun you're using is.

I don't think it's bad at all to have at least one thing that physically awards you for having a better weapon than someone else, we do not have many things that do so in the first place.

The thing with making the guaranteed eye untradeable, it makes the people who get it HAVE to use it, which then increases the chances that the eye will actually just be consumed/failed, rather than cheese trade it to someone who is good at it almost guaranteeing it succeeds, just like Djinn's all over again. The outcome will be tradeable, just the eye itself wont be (unless you get it via RNG).

There's plenty of other ways to gain an eye right now, and the downside of going for the guaranteed one is the fact you have to use it yourself. Which I think is perfectly fair, as I never wanted people to 'trade them to people who can do them and trade the reward back', because that's just a loophole to get around the 'skill' barrier.

Quote:I think that stormforged/hydra should be BIS for kraken specifically and I'm glad that's becoming more the case. I dislike that azuredge is still so good it'll cheese your way to eye no problem.

The thing is, more than Excel have the Azuredge, yet he usually still gets the eye with these changes? If it could cheese your way to it no problem, why do the other users not get any eyes?  

Quote:My main problem with with kraken is probably how for a world boss it's more of a singleplayer experience that requires you avoid everyone at all costs.

If that were the case, the Kraken would never get killed. Remember how long it took for people to actually kill it? A decent chunk of people have to focus the same tentacles, otherwise you simply won't kill it. That's a bout as complex as a 30 player boss fight should get, because managing that many people into doing a more complex boss fight would be extremely difficult and frustrating.

I do sort of like the idea of changing the guaranteed to top 8 or something, but I wouldn't make it tradeable still. A guaranteed one should have the downside of needing to be used by the person who obtained it, I stand by that firmly.

I personally also like a top 8 system of some sorts instead of just a singular best person getting it every time. It just creates a system where kraken fishers actively avoid fishing kraken when certain people are on in my experience. I personally have founnd myself actively avoiding people when fishing/using kraken just because the current system for eye damage is so competitive that I've felt it's impossible for me to get eye because I'm not good enough/have 130 constant ping cuz swedenman. I just feel like a system where it's less punishing to die or miss a couple shots on eye, would make the whole fighting experience more fun and a whole lot less stressful. I don't like bashing the Kraken fight because I really think it's a fun fight, it's just that it gets really stressful and competitive and it feels like the guaranteed eye is the source of a lot of the problems. Therefore I really agree with the system of distributing the guaranteed eye between the top x players because it would still reward good players but it wouldn't feel as competitive as before which would in turn make kraken fights into a more community friendly environment. Still love you brass please don't block me for being a whiny kid I can do better :>(

[Kuro]

(12-22-2018, 01:41 PM)Brassx Wrote:  The thing is, more than Excel have the Azuredge, yet he usually still gets the eye with these changes? If it could cheese your way to it no problem, why do the other users not get any eyes?  

I'd put Excel and I in a similar bracket when it comes to skill/ability, my eerie galil is marginally better except in eye damage when it competes against Excel using an azuredge+shock absorb. Azuredge scoping in = stationary death laser so while Excel and I may be on even terms in skill I will never beat him unless a spider lands on his face IRL or he has to sneeze or something. Even then there's Nytemart who uses an Azuredge, Nivendo who comes back every weekend to get an eye, or that one guy who can top score kraker every time who we don't talk about since he's not in the same league as us regular humans

(12-22-2018, 01:41 PM)Brassx Wrote:  If that were the case, the Kraken would never get killed. Remember how long it took for people to actually kill it? A decent chunk of people have to focus the same tentacles, otherwise you simply won't kill it. That's a bout as complex as a 30 player boss fight should get, because managing that many people into doing a more complex boss fight would be extremely difficult and frustrating.

That was when nobody knew how to do it, everyone now shoots the regular tentacles as they give more score and are down longer. At that point it's brute force through tentacles while dodging anything that comes your way. Stay away from groups as you're more likely to get hit by some literal splash damage or a stray rock.
The most you'll get in terms of callouts is piam calling heals or that stray guy that says "aoe" in voice chat when they start getting pulled.

[Man]

(12-22-2018, 06:03 PM)Kuro Wrote:  I'd put Excel and I in a similar bracket when it comes to skill/ability

Nope. Just git gud kid.

EDIT: Also, if I'm being honest, it really does just depend on the person, their computer, their aim, their ping, and their gun. Ban was using the stormforged aug all that time before I got it, but I got 3 eyes in a row with it. It felt guaranteed. I was doing so far beyond everyone else's DPS that it was absurd, even when I died or fucked up shots.

[fanc typh]

Once Nyte was using (i think) said Aug, died three times and kept saying “theres no way i got top damage/eye damage now,”, just to end up with both.
(Note: each death happened after a down, so he progressively lost more and more score)

[Man]

(12-22-2018, 06:34 PM)Fancy Jolly Typh Wrote:  Once Nyte was using (i think) said Aug, died three times and kept saying “theres no way i got top damage/eye damage now,”, just to end up with both.
(Note: each death happened after a down, so he progressively lost more and more score)

If I'm being quite honest, I don't think that dying affects your eye damage. It might affect score, but I haven't actually seen what Brass has said. I think he just said that to prevent people from dealing no damage to tentacles and being true leechers.

[Terran]

Sorry, totally off topic, but I picked up that azuredge for the first time in TTT and lmao that was ridiculous. Insanely overpowered, but most AUGs are.