NERF {Vitality Crystal}

[Unpoke]

the minority here is pretty loud and fueled by salt

honestly i cant see how people think its that much better than a reload crystal
if youre in a full spray battle (WHICH MOST BATTLES THAT MATTER ARE THIS), you can choose with your crystal slot being able to MAYBE take an extra shot or two OR be able to reload faster and get like 4-5 shots out or probably more before the other person can reload
and if you have warrior class with reload crystal, fuckin forget it, game over, some guns can reload and empty a clip again before another person reloads

the only reason vitality crystals are getting this much shit is because its a VISUAL way people can easily blame for why they lost a fight
which yes, crystals need to fuckin be good enough to have influence on the tide of a fight you fucks, otherwise whats the point of them? and all of the mainstream ones do it (not jump, gravity, and arguably blaze), but like i said, its less visual so its harder to blame


edit: also worth mentioning i do not use a vitality crystal and terran does, and ill still whoop his ass any day
really though, think of how many times you use terran LITERALLY as a free kill even tho he uses vital

[Terran]

I hate the word "Nerf", because it makes people hate it. Its more of a balance than anything. But in the words of a guy who spent over 70k on vitality crystals:


NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERF
Also, I've survived -SO- many times and failed to kill people SO many times due to that extra HP. It goes a REALLY long way. Like, a REALLY REALLY long way.

[Alex Summers]

(09-20-2018, 12:44 PM)Terran Wrote:  I hate the word "Nerf", because it makes people hate it. Its more of a balance than anything. But in the words of a guy who spent over 70k on vitality crystals:


NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERF
Also, I've survived -SO- many times and failed to kill people SO many times due to that extra HP. It goes a REALLY long way. Like, a REALLY REALLY long way.

Isn't the point of the crystal to help you survive though...?

[2bias]

You guys act like this is the only item that can change/does change the meta of TTT.

Guns that do massive instant 40 aoe damage, or suffixes that can continue to kill you after you've killed the person that inflicted it completely changed how TTT is played(i.e inflicting an op dot then running away)

if vitality crystals seriously need a nerf than a lot of other things do as well, i kind of see the vitality crystal as a fair way to counter them.

the most i can somewhat agree with is just slightly buffing deagle/rifle headshot damage, but thats about it. if you want to counter vitality crystals so bad with a deagle use a heroic deagle, tons of damage and firerate.

not every item also needs a downside, please explain what the downside to using the tartarus beam(correctly) is, or eerie fog, or basically any suffix or special ability. almost all of them have 0 down sides. Vitality crystals are in the 1 in 3k range from dropping, meaning theyre starting to cross into godlike territory for rarity, as in you cant use the arguement that because its not a godlike it needs a downside.

[Brassx]

(09-20-2018, 01:50 PM)tobiasxz-usagi Wrote:  if vitality crystals seriously need a nerf than a lot of other things do as well, i kind of see the vitality crystal as a fair way to counter them.

The problem with that logic, is it's a 'counter' across the board. Not just to the select items you're talking about, so in that sense it's not really a 'fair way' to counter them, as it helps counter such a wide variety of items.

Also passing blame saying "other items are OP so why shouldn't this be", is not a very good, constructive, nor positive way of looking at this discussion or the points people made. That adds nothing to this discussion at all, and doesn't change any stance what-so-ever.



Here's how I see the other sides issue:
A vitality crystal is ALMOST the same exact thing as an innocent having body armor. So imagine a world without vitality crystals, and every innocent was a detective with 30% damage reduction. (Vitality crystal is basically 25% damage reduction).

Looking at it that way, I can see the other side, now bundle that with actual detectives or traitors buying body armor. All the sudden you have basically the equivalent to a "162 hp" player running around.

Something that may help is to make it so body armor only applies if at 100 hp or below, that would help lower that 'pseudo hp' amount by a bit. But I don't know if I agree with that.

Some math for you guys to think about:

Lets say, your weapon does 16 damage per shot (vanilla Galil), that means 11.2 (or 11 rounded down) damage per shot with Body Armor. It's also close to the equivalent of 12 Body shot damage with a vitality crystal. Which then means with body armor AND a Vit crystal your damage is now the same as 8.4 damage per shot vs an unarmored, 100hp person. That's a HUGE decrease. By almost HALF of your actual base damage. Now of course this is all relative to the actual weapons basedamage.

Below is charted @ 16 damage per body shot.

• Number of Shots to kill WITHOUT Vit crystal
  • No Body Armor - ~7.
  • With Body Armor - ~9.
    
• Number of Shots to kill WITH Vit crystal
  • No Body Armor - ~8.
  • With Body Armor - ~11.
    

Personally, I can see why this type of crystal is actually sort of needed to tone down some of the OP weapons we definitely have, but at what cost? It also hurts any of the 'more balanced' weapons we have. Thus why I can fully understand both arguments.

[Unpoke]

not every innocent has a vitality crystal, and if they do, its usually not a max one
theyre a prim crystal that the user has to 1.) own and 2.) be willing to sacrifice another huge benefit for
also its not like traitors CANT use vit crystals

[2bias]

Could add a new stat "TTT Health" which would use the same percentage, but would have lower health.

would still make them useful for events and such.

[Brassx]

That was a scenario you noob, I wasn't literally saying every innocent has one, but let's not act like the crystals are extremely rare or anything, I was throwing statistics out of a 'maxed' one yes, but it doesn't change very much maxed or not. There's well over 80 of them in the system right now.

Crystal Synergizer breaks having to sacrifice a 'huge benefit' because you can combine multiple crystal effects. I'd agree with that statement if you could still only use 1 crystal per slot, otherwise, pretty much irrelevant. Vitality crystal is one of the biggest benefits you can have.

---

(09-20-2018, 03:36 PM)tobiasxz-usagi Wrote:  Could add a new stat "TTT Health" which would use the same percentage, but would have lower health.

would still make them useful for events and such.

That or change it to 'damage reduction' and have it not affect headshots, like stated above.

[Terran]

Also, please don't forget we have dailies and challenges that make us use very low-tier weapons. Good luck killing a vit crystal user with a good weapon when you have a decimating mini uzi or something terranable.

You just fall into situations where it feels like you literally cannot kill some people, and that is unfair to a traitor. Also, they make awps even WORRRRSE. Energy Swords, too. Some Knives aren't balanced for them either (I think). A myriad of issues that just messes everything up.

This is coming from a dude who paid 30k for a 23% one, btw

Vitality > Djinn >>> Mid-tier (reload, recoil, dimension) >>>>>>> Low-tier (blaze, jump, gravity, etc)

Nothing beats "extra health/damage" in a meta involving...health-and-damage. I liked how crystals were because none were direct "Benefits" asides reload/recoil, which were more compensation anyways, but then extra stat crystals came out and I find it unfair. Djinn is a pretty cool idea, I still think its executed poorly (its just a flat dps boost and a heal), but I also don't have ideas for it so it can stay.

[Ban the Unbanned Bandit]

Nerf Grimstroke in Dota 2 too op.